Fwd: New licence improves access to environmental data
Summary
- There are 54 posts — by 14 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by Jonathan Hunt at 2009 Jul 10 20:22 NZST
It is public at last - released with a CC-BY licence :) I think we need to congratulate MFE publicly! Cheers Gav Begin forwarded message:
> From: Karl Majorhazi <email obscured>> > Date: 1 July 2009 2:52:43 PM > To: <email obscured>'" <email obscured>> > Subject: New licence improves access to environmental data > > Hi Gavin, > Here’s a media release for the NZ GIS group. > > Thanks > Karl > > > > 1 July 2009 Media Statement > > New licence improves access to environmental data > > Two major environmental databases are set to become more accessible > and easier to use following the re-release of these digital maps by > the Ministry for the Environment. > > The Land Cover Database and the Land Environments New Zealand > classification layers, widely used by agencies in environmental and > resource management planning, will now be issued online with a > Creative Commons Attribution licence. > > Ministry for the Environment’s Len Brown says this will promote the > free exchange of environmental data, allowing more people access, > use and benefit from the data. > > “Improving access to the Government’s spatial information is a > goal of the New Zealand Geospatial Strategy, one that the Ministry > is committed to supporting.” > > The Ministry will be using an existing online service from > Koordinates.com, a New Zealand company, to distribute the data. An > off-the-shelf data licence from Creative Commons will allow the data > to be freely used and shared while maintaining Crown copyright. This > move does away with licence fees and the cost and effort of issuing > and maintaining end-user licence agreements. > > The move to make the digital maps available under a Creative Commons > licence was prompted by the need to replace the existing supply > agreements that were due to expire. > > “The new licence will allow the public to freely share and > distribute environmental data and information without having to ask > for permission if they want to use the data in different ways. > > “Terralink International and Landcare Research, the previous > suppliers, see the potential growth of the user-base as an > opportunity for them to provide more value-added services,” Brown > said. > > (Questions and answers for the re-licensing of the Land Cover > Database (LCDB) and Land Environments New Zealand (LENZ) attached) > > Media contact: > Sophie Lee, Media Advisor, > Ministry for the Environment – Manatū Mō Te Taiao > Phone: 04 439 7550 > > Q&As for the re-licensing of Land Cover Database (LCDB) and Land > Environments New Zealand (LENZ) > > Q What is LCDB and LENZ? > LCDB2 is a thematic classification of 43 land cover and land use > classes. The polygon features contain a code and boundary > representing the land cover type for the period Summer 1996 / 97 and > Summer 2001 / 02. > > Land Environments New Zealand (LENZ) is a classification of 15 > climate, landform, and soil variables chosen for their relevance to > biological distributions. Four levels of classification detail have > been produced from this analysis, containing 20, 100, 200, and 500 > groups respectively. > > Q Why has the Ministry decided to change the licence agreements for > the distribution of the LCDB and LENZ? > The licence agreements for the distribution of LCDB and LENZ have > expired and alternative arrangements were being reviewed at the time > the State Services Commission was preparing their Open Government > Information and Data Re-use discussion paper. > > The Internet has developed a capacity to deliver large amounts of > data to consumers which did not exist five years ago when LCDB and > LENZ were first made available and when CDs and postage were the > accepted distribution mechanisms. > > The LCDB was licensed to Terralink to distribute on the Ministry for > the Environment’s behalf from 2004, and LENZ was licensed to > Landcare. > > Creative Commons licences enable us to distribute data and encourage > sharing and re-use while retaining Crown copyright. There is no > longer any need to have users sign an End-User Licence Agreement > which contains restrictions and conditions on how the data can be > used. > > Q What does this mean for the previous licence holders Terralink and > Landcare? > Terralink and Landcare can still continue distributing the data with > the new licences. This initiative is the result of improvements in > technology. Both companies are willing participants and will benefit > from the change. > > The current user-base is around 100 users for LCDB and 150 users of > LENZ. > We expect that free and easy access to the data will increase the > user base and with that, the market for value-added services. > > Landcare Research has informed us that following this announcement, > it will be issuing a release announcing its intention to release its > own underlying LENZ layers with a Creative Commons licence. These > layers are Landcare Research’s IP and were used to create the > Ministry’s LENZ classification – which is an aggregation of these > underlying layers. They are/were separately licensed products for > LENZ users who require more detailed data. > > Q What are the benefits of a Creative Commons licence? > The benefits of using Creative Commons licences are: > Users know, up-front, what they can and can’t do with the data > without having to read the legal code > Users don’t have to ask for permission if they want to use the data > in different ways > The Ministry doesn’t have to go to the expense and effort of > creating and maintaining licence agreements with every user > Creative Commons licences are standardised, off-the-shelf products > that can be used for a wide range of Government data and information. > > Creative Commons licences provide copyright holders with control > over how their works can be used. Core licences of the Creative > Commons can be used to: > Credit the originator of the work > Prohibit commercial exploitation of the data > Ensure derivative works are shared with the same licence as the > original work. > Prohibit the creation of derivative works. > > A Creative Commons licence does not mean the data is “Public > Domain”. Crown copyright will still be maintained. The Government > will still be the primary, authoritative source for LCDB and LENZ > even though anyone can share the data. > > Q How common is the use of a Creative Commons licence for public > information among other government departments? > > Not all Government data can be distributed this way. There are cases > where privacy and confidentiality need to be preserved and where > commercialisation is in the public interest. > > Other governments overseas have been looking at opening access to > public sector information. > > > > Sophie Lee > Adviser Communications > Reporting and Communications > Ministry for the Environment > Direct (04) 439 7550 > Fax (04) 439 7706 > >
Is this online?
On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 15:15 +1200, Gavin Treadgold wrote: > It is public at last - released with a CC-BY licence :) > > I think we need to congratulate MFE publicly! > > Cheers Gav > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Karl Majorhazi <email obscured>> > > Date: 1 July 2009 2:52:43 PM > > To: <email obscured>'" <email obscured>> > > Subject: New licence improves access to environmental data > > > > Hi Gavin, > > Here’s a media release for the NZ GIS group. > > > > Thanks > > Karl > > > > > > > > 1 July 2009 Media Statement > > > > New licence improves access to environmental data > > > > Two major environmental databases are set to become more accessible > > and easier to use following the re-release of these digital maps by > > the Ministry for the Environment. > > > > The Land Cover Database and the Land Environments New Zealand > > classification layers, widely used by agencies in environmental and > > resource management planning, will now be issued online with a > > Creative Commons Attribution licence. > > > > Ministry for the Environment’s Len Brown says this will promote the > > free exchange of environmental data, allowing more people access, > > use and benefit from the data. > > > > “Improving access to the Government’s spatial information is a > > goal of the New Zealand Geospatial Strategy, one that the Ministry > > is committed to supporting.” > > > > The Ministry will be using an existing online service from > > Koordinates.com, a New Zealand company, to distribute the data. An > > off-the-shelf data licence from Creative Commons will allow the data > > to be freely used and shared while maintaining Crown copyright. This > > move does away with licence fees and the cost and effort of issuing > > and maintaining end-user licence agreements. > > > > The move to make the digital maps available under a Creative Commons > > licence was prompted by the need to replace the existing supply > > agreements that were due to expire. > > > > “The new licence will allow the public to freely share and > > distribute environmental data and information without having to ask > > for permission if they want to use the data in different ways. > > > > “Terralink International and Landcare Research, the previous > > suppliers, see the potential growth of the user-base as an > > opportunity for them to provide more value-added services,” Brown > > said. > > > > (Questions and answers for the re-licensing of the Land Cover > > Database (LCDB) and Land Environments New Zealand (LENZ) attached) > > > > Media contact: > > Sophie Lee, Media Advisor, > > Ministry for the Environment – Manatū Mō Te Taiao > > Phone: 04 439 7550 > > > > Q&As for the re-licensing of Land Cover Database (LCDB) and Land > > Environments New Zealand (LENZ) > > > > Q What is LCDB and LENZ? > > LCDB2 is a thematic classification of 43 land cover and land use > > classes. The polygon features contain a code and boundary > > representing the land cover type for the period Summer 1996 / 97 and > > Summer 2001 / 02. > > > > Land Environments New Zealand (LENZ) is a classification of 15 > > climate, landform, and soil variables chosen for their relevance to > > biological distributions. Four levels of classification detail have > > been produced from this analysis, containing 20, 100, 200, and 500 > > groups respectively. > > > > Q Why has the Ministry decided to change the licence agreements for > > the distribution of the LCDB and LENZ? > > The licence agreements for the distribution of LCDB and LENZ have > > expired and alternative arrangements were being reviewed at the time > > the State Services Commission was preparing their Open Government > > Information and Data Re-use discussion paper. > > > > The Internet has developed a capacity to deliver large amounts of > > data to consumers which did not exist five years ago when LCDB and > > LENZ were first made available and when CDs and postage were the > > accepted distribution mechanisms. > > > > The LCDB was licensed to Terralink to distribute on the Ministry for > > the Environment’s behalf from 2004, and LENZ was licensed to > > Landcare. > > > > Creative Commons licences enable us to distribute data and encourage > > sharing and re-use while retaining Crown copyright. There is no > > longer any need to have users sign an End-User Licence Agreement > > which contains restrictions and conditions on how the data can be > > used. > > > > Q What does this mean for the previous licence holders Terralink and > > Landcare? > > Terralink and Landcare can still continue distributing the data with > > the new licences. This initiative is the result of improvements in > > technology. Both companies are willing participants and will benefit > > from the change. > > > > The current user-base is around 100 users for LCDB and 150 users of > > LENZ. > > We expect that free and easy access to the data will increase the > > user base and with that, the market for value-added services. > > > > Landcare Research has informed us that following this announcement, > > it will be issuing a release announcing its intention to release its > > own underlying LENZ layers with a Creative Commons licence. These > > layers are Landcare Research’s IP and were used to create the > > Ministry’s LENZ classification – which is an aggregation of these > > underlying layers. They are/were separately licensed products for > > LENZ users who require more detailed data. > > > > Q What are the benefits of a Creative Commons licence? > > The benefits of using Creative Commons licences are: > > Users know, up-front, what they can and can’t do with the data > > without having to read the legal code > > Users don’t have to ask for permission if they want to use the data > > in different ways > > The Ministry doesn’t have to go to the expense and effort of > > creating and maintaining licence agreements with every user > > Creative Commons licences are standardised, off-the-shelf products > > that can be used for a wide range of Government data and information. > > > > Creative Commons licences provide copyright holders with control > > over how their works can be used. Core licences of the Creative > > Commons can be used to: > > Credit the originator of the work > > Prohibit commercial exploitation of the data > > Ensure derivative works are shared with the same licence as the > > original work. > > Prohibit the creation of derivative works. > > > > A Creative Commons licence does not mean the data is “Public > > Domain”. Crown copyright will still be maintained. The Government > > will still be the primary, authoritative source for LCDB and LENZ > > even though anyone can share the data. > > > > Q How common is the use of a Creative Commons licence for public > > information among other government departments? > > > > Not all Government data can be distributed this way. There are cases > > where privacy and confidentiality need to be preserved and where > > commercialisation is in the public interest. > > > > Other governments overseas have been looking at opening access to > > public sector information. > > > > > > > > Sophie Lee > > Adviser Communications > > Reporting and Communications > > Ministry for the Environment > > Direct (04) 439 7550 > > Fax (04) 439 7706 > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/16hG3oovJZ1nDRpqcvQ7Kj > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org -- --------------------------------------- Donald Christie - Director Catalyst IT Limited Level 6,150-154 Willis Street, PO Box 11-053 Wellington New Zealand Tel:+64 4 4992267 Mob:+64 274 707814 http://catalyst.net.nz ----------------------------------------
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Don <email obscured>> wrote: > Is this online? > http://koordinates.com/maps/environment/ Downloadable in a plethora of file formats for your data-consuming pleasure... Rob :)
<http://www.gis.org.nz/node/71> <http://www.mfe.govt.nz/issues/land/land-cover-dbase/index.html> <http://koordinates.com/maps/environment/>
:D On 1/07/2009, at 3:26 PM, Don wrote: > Is this online? > > On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 15:15 +1200, Gavin Treadgold wrote: >> It is public at last - released with a CC-BY licence :) >> >> I think we need to congratulate MFE publicly! >> >> Cheers Gav >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Karl Majorhazi <email obscured>> >>> Date: 1 July 2009 2:52:43 PM >>> To: <email obscured>'" <email obscured>> >>> Subject: New licence improves access to environmental data >>> >>> Hi Gavin, >>> Here’s a media release for the NZ GIS group. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Karl >>> >>> >>> >>> 1 July 2009 Media Statement >>> >>> New licence improves access to environmental data >>> >>> Two major environmental databases are set to become more accessible >>> and easier to use following the re-release of these digital maps by >>> the Ministry for the Environment. >>> >>> The Land Cover Database and the Land Environments New Zealand >>> classification layers, widely used by agencies in environmental and >>> resource management planning, will now be issued online with a >>> Creative Commons Attribution licence. >>> >>> Ministry for the Environment’s Len Brown says this will promote >>> the >>> free exchange of environmental data, allowing more people access, >>> use and benefit from the data. >>> >>> “Improving access to the Government’s spatial information is a >>> goal of the New Zealand Geospatial Strategy, one that the Ministry >>> is committed to supporting.” >>> >>> The Ministry will be using an existing online service from >>> Koordinates.com, a New Zealand company, to distribute the data. An >>> off-the-shelf data licence from Creative Commons will allow the data >>> to be freely used and shared while maintaining Crown copyright. This >>> move does away with licence fees and the cost and effort of issuing >>> and maintaining end-user licence agreements. >>> >>> The move to make the digital maps available under a Creative Commons >>> licence was prompted by the need to replace the existing supply >>> agreements that were due to expire. >>> >>> “The new licence will allow the public to freely share and >>> distribute environmental data and information without having to ask >>> for permission if they want to use the data in different ways. >>> >>> “Terralink International and Landcare Research, the previous >>> suppliers, see the potential growth of the user-base as an >>> opportunity for them to provide more value-added services,” Brown >>> said. >>> >>> (Questions and answers for the re-licensing of the Land Cover >>> Database (LCDB) and Land Environments New Zealand (LENZ) attached) >>> >>> Media contact: >>> Sophie Lee, Media Advisor, >>> Ministry for the Environment – Manatū Mō Te Taiao >>> Phone: 04 439 7550 >>> >>> Q&As for the re-licensing of Land Cover Database (LCDB) and Land >>> Environments New Zealand (LENZ) >>> >>> Q What is LCDB and LENZ? >>> LCDB2 is a thematic classification of 43 land cover and land use >>> classes. The polygon features contain a code and boundary >>> representing the land cover type for the period Summer 1996 / 97 and >>> Summer 2001 / 02. >>> >>> Land Environments New Zealand (LENZ) is a classification of 15 >>> climate, landform, and soil variables chosen for their relevance to >>> biological distributions. Four levels of classification detail have >>> been produced from this analysis, containing 20, 100, 200, and 500 >>> groups respectively. >>> >>> Q Why has the Ministry decided to change the licence agreements for >>> the distribution of the LCDB and LENZ? >>> The licence agreements for the distribution of LCDB and LENZ have >>> expired and alternative arrangements were being reviewed at the time >>> the State Services Commission was preparing their Open Government >>> Information and Data Re-use discussion paper. >>> >>> The Internet has developed a capacity to deliver large amounts of >>> data to consumers which did not exist five years ago when LCDB and >>> LENZ were first made available and when CDs and postage were the >>> accepted distribution mechanisms. >>> >>> The LCDB was licensed to Terralink to distribute on the Ministry for >>> the Environment’s behalf from 2004, and LENZ was licensed to >>> Landcare. >>> >>> Creative Commons licences enable us to distribute data and encourage >>> sharing and re-use while retaining Crown copyright. There is no >>> longer any need to have users sign an End-User Licence Agreement >>> which contains restrictions and conditions on how the data can be >>> used. >>> >>> Q What does this mean for the previous licence holders Terralink and >>> Landcare? >>> Terralink and Landcare can still continue distributing the data with >>> the new licences. This initiative is the result of improvements in >>> technology. Both companies are willing participants and will benefit >>> from the change. >>> >>> The current user-base is around 100 users for LCDB and 150 users of >>> LENZ. >>> We expect that free and easy access to the data will increase the >>> user base and with that, the market for value-added services. >>> >>> Landcare Research has informed us that following this announcement, >>> it will be issuing a release announcing its intention to release its >>> own underlying LENZ layers with a Creative Commons licence. These >>> layers are Landcare Research’s IP and were used to create the >>> Ministry’s LENZ classification – which is an aggregation of >>> these >>> underlying layers. They are/were separately licensed products for >>> LENZ users who require more detailed data. >>> >>> Q What are the benefits of a Creative Commons licence? >>> The benefits of using Creative Commons licences are: >>> Users know, up-front, what they can and can’t do with the data >>> without having to read the legal code >>> Users don’t have to ask for permission if they want to use the >>> data >>> in different ways >>> The Ministry doesn’t have to go to the expense and effort of >>> creating and maintaining licence agreements with every user >>> Creative Commons licences are standardised, off-the-shelf products >>> that can be used for a wide range of Government data and >>> information. >>> >>> Creative Commons licences provide copyright holders with control >>> over how their works can be used. Core licences of the Creative >>> Commons can be used to: >>> Credit the originator of the work >>> Prohibit commercial exploitation of the data >>> Ensure derivative works are shared with the same licence as the >>> original work. >>> Prohibit the creation of derivative works. >>> >>> A Creative Commons licence does not mean the data is “Public >>> Domain”. Crown copyright will still be maintained. The Government >>> will still be the primary, authoritative source for LCDB and LENZ >>> even though anyone can share the data. >>> >>> Q How common is the use of a Creative Commons licence for public >>> information among other government departments? >>> >>> Not all Government data can be distributed this way. There are cases >>> where privacy and confidentiality need to be preserved and where >>> commercialisation is in the public interest. >>> >>> Other governments overseas have been looking at opening access to >>> public sector information. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sophie Lee >>> Adviser Communications >>> Reporting and Communications >>> Ministry for the Environment >>> Direct (04) 439 7550 >>> Fax (04) 439 7706 >>> >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/16hG3oovJZ1nDRpqcvQ7Kj >> >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >> >> Start your own free groups and site with >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >> >> Host your own online groups site with >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org > -- > --------------------------------------- > Donald Christie - Director > Catalyst IT Limited > Level 6,150-154 Willis Street, PO Box 11-053 > Wellington New Zealand > Tel:+64 4 4992267 > Mob:+64 274 707814 > http://catalyst.net.nz > ---------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3k0srAeXOFKAJgd0paqTA5 > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
Ah, and the press release is at: http://www.mfe.govt.nz/issues/land/land-cover-dbase/index.html Rob :)
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Robert Coup <email obscured>> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Don <email obscured>> wrote: > >> Is this online? >> > > http://koordinates.com/maps/environment/ > > Downloadable in a plethora of file formats for your data-consuming > pleasure... > > Rob :) >
On 30/06/2009, at 9:15 PM, Gavin Treadgold wrote: > I think we need to congratulate MFE publicly! I've done it privately (email attached). I'll try to mention this in my Nine to Noon segment today, as well.
Nat ----- To: Nick Smith CC: John Key Subject: Kudos! MfE opens data The Ministry for the Environment recently re-released the Land Cover Database and Land Environments New Zealand classification layers under a Creative Commons Attribution license. This is *fantastic* news. Information lubricates the economy: rational economic actors make correct decisions only when they have correct information. Lowering the hurdles to information access and reuse leads to better decisions being made. This is as true in science as it is in business. Releasing taxpayer-funded information at no cost and with reuse rights is 100% in the public interest and I commend this. I recently wrote to the Prime Minister to express my disappointment that New Zealand has no Government 2.0 program for transparency and open data access, the way the USA, UK, and Australia have. This release by the MfE is a good step forward, and it's heartening that individual departments are doing this. I reiterate, however, that I'd like to see the government embrace this as policy and put some muscle into it, rather than relying on the enlightenment and good sense of individual bureaucrats. Please pass on my appreciation of this move to the relevant people in the Ministry. Cheers; Nat Torkington http://opengovt.org.nz
Nathan Torkington wrote: > Information lubricates the economy: rational economic actors make > correct decisions only when they have correct information. Oh Nat! You're surely not suggesting there's such a thing as a "rational economic actor" outside of an economics textbook? ;) It's a very good email though.
Mike
> > Oh Nat! You're surely not suggesting there's such a thing as a "rational > economic actor" outside of an economics textbook? ;) > Government organisations may hear the message, but are accountable to Ministers for the money they receive. They work to a budget approved by Cabinet. They can't just suddenly decide there's a bright new idea and redirect funds to it - that's called misappropriation. In today's tight economic times, general ideas that have no proven business value to New Zealand, will not survive e.g. "Make all government information free because its a good idea". Specific ideas have a better chance e.g. "Make land use cover data available, because farmers can use it to make better decisions about stocking their land, while preventing erosion; this will give a 2% productivity gain to the dairy sector worth XXX million dollars". Even then, that specific idea has to be funded, which can happen in 2 ways (1) Ministers may decide it is an initiative and give it priority - therefore it gets funding as a new initiative in the next budget (2) Agencies may decide to include the requirement in a system rebuild/redesign at marginal cost. *It would be helpful if we had some agreement on what types of data is most critical to be open?* Mike P *"On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_wants_to_be_free#cite_note-clarke-0> *
Hi Mike, On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Mike Pearson <email obscured>> wrote: > > Even then, that specific idea has to be funded, which can happen in 2 ways > > (1) Ministers may decide it is an initiative and give it priority - > therefore it gets funding as a new initiative in the next budget > (2) Agencies may decide to include the requirement in a system > rebuild/redesign at marginal cost. Presumably there's some scope for increasing operational efficiency outside those two? For data that is already made available in some extent to licensees, partner orgs, contractors, OIA requests - which i'd say is a lot: it is a saving to reduce those costs by saying "get from this webpage" instead of paying people to process requests, negotiate costs, get licenses signed, extract data, ship CDs... Could a project that said "instead of hiring somebody at $X/year to process data requests, we'll pay $X*2 to get a legal go-ahead and adopt/create a simple web distribution mechanism" operate outside of the two ways from above? We're talking lowest-hanging fruit here: the most commonly provided/distributed/requested data and the least complex (operational, technical, legal) to achieve. Quick wins from that and the learning that comes from it can then drive larger initiatives. > *"On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so > valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. > On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting > it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two > fighting against each other." -- In terms of government data, the tax/ratepayer has already paid for it. It's not "free data", it's "getting hold of what i've paid for already". Foreigners (who don't pay NZ taxes) get it for free because the cost of differentiating them is so high. And we collectively probably scrounge more than our fair share of their data :) Rob :)
On 2/07/2009, at 8:54 AM, Robert Coup wrote: > We're talking lowest-hanging fruit here: the most commonly > provided/distributed/requested data and the least complex > (operational, technical, legal) to achieve. Quick wins from that and > the learning that comes from it can then drive larger initiatives. In terms of lowest hanging fruit, I'd suggest some of the following: At a high level, it is about our interaction with the environment, our communities, assets/infrastructure, and Government. First and foremost is transportation, as that is our physical connection and means of moving ourselves to our points of interest. So roads, rail segments/ stations, airports, bus routes, walking tracks, cycle paths etc, and getting this into a form where routes can be calculated. A fair amount of this crosses over with assets/infrastructure. Next step is the end points of these journeys, the points of interest such as Zenbu. Now we know where we are (A), can find where we want to go (B), and have the information to get from A to B. This is something that NZOGPS and Zenbu have already got well in hand with existing data - although it still needs continual refinement, bug fixing, updating, and addition of new data. Recreational data is certainly the next area that could have big appeal - as all of us like making use of this magnicent country. Now we're seeing DOC track data released, and it would be great to supplement this with polygons of the public land (links with Walking Access Commission mapping work) and of course all the council held recreational data (walking tracks, mountain bike tracks etc). Add boat ramps and others, and soon we would have a good comprehensive recreational data set that many people would be able to use. Of course there are things like life safety that would be a valuable public resource, many of these points are already contained in Zenbu, but we may have to go about filling some gaps. E.g. I don't know if all CIvil Defence shelters in NZ are available. Then, I think one of the best ways we could add value to all this, is actually produce a 'distribution' of this data that packages up the most recent versions together. Call it an open NZ Atlas or similar. This could be automatically updated monthly or quarterly for example. As an emergency manager, I don't trust having online access all the time, so we really need to be able to download data to our laptops and phones and use them when we are aware from an Internet connection (e.g. out hiking). The natural step after this is to promote the development of applications that are able to utilise the NZ Atlas. E.g. promote development of an iPhone application that support the Atlas, or a download version that works with the free ArcExplorer. And of course supporting NZOGPS/Zenbu as another means of putting data in the hands of citizens. It is one thing to have disparate datasets available, it is another thing entirely to put them in a form that is usable by your average citizen. This is something that NZOGPS Maps/Zenbu have done really well at, and a model we should consider supporting to expand use and interest in this data. Cheers Gav
I think Gavin has hit on something that people can understand and "hang their hat on" - an open NZ Atlas, capable of being exploited by new applications and display devices. Most people are familiar with the paper NZ Atlas - so the analogy works - much better than asking politicians to push open data for geospatial mashups on touch screen handheld devices. So would an open NZ Digital Atlas project get peoples attention?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> wrote: > > Then, I think one of the best ways we could add value to all this, is > actually produce a 'distribution' of this data that packages up the > most recent versions together. Call it an open NZ Atlas or similar. > > The natural step after this is to promote the development of > applications that are able to utilise the NZ Atlas. E.g. promote > development of an iPhone application that support the Atlas, or a > download version that works with the free ArcExplorer. And of course > supporting NZOGPS/Zenbu as another means of putting data in the hands > of citizens. > >
Why a NZ Digital Atlas when we have Google E/M. or Yahoo Maps or Bing what's it? Surely the need is for open data feeds to these types of apps! I like the MikeP initial questions. The suggestions so far that I understand to be "transport routes" and "recreational data" though interesting don't quite ring the bell for my audience who happen to be Regional Council and other similar departments. Where I have found interest is from people looking to invest in properties (I think Zoodle are seeing this?), people interested in property they have insured (guess who) and those interested in what is planned/happening in their neighbour hood - oh yes and those who want to do something about climate change. MikeP's indirect point about increased productivity is also an angle that appears promising. The Labour Dept in one of its reports makes an interesting comment about Forests, Farms and Fishing being NZ's prime industries. (I would add Tourists - lets cultivate and harvest them all FFF&T). So if this is the case then we perhaps need a shared picture of NZ land (and its marine dominion) so that we can optimise its "use" for the benefit of all NZders. So if that is the intent then the "reference layers" could arguable be: - a coord frame for the whole NZ dominion - "current" imagery - land elevation (incl, bathymetry) - river/stream / lakes network - road centre lines - legal boundaries (including addresses) In WMS, WFS, KML etc Simple! ~8-)
Jim
Yep - We are seeing this. What we want is to cherry pick the data and repackage it for our audience (property buyers). I'm sure other sectors have different needs so they would do the same and surface the content in the manner that makes sense for them. An example would be climate data - We just want average tempratures/rainfall/sunshine for each suburb whereas climate change peps probably want to dig a lot more and do stuff with the data.
Glen On 2/07/2009, at 2:06 PM, <email obscured> wrote: > > Where I have found interest is from people looking to invest in > properties (I think Zoodle are seeing this?), people interested in > property they have insured (guess who) and those interested in what > is planned/happening in their neighbour hood - oh yes and those who > want to do something about climate change. >
On 2/07/2009, at 2:06 PM, <email obscured> wrote: > Why a NZ Digital Atlas when we have Google E/M. or Yahoo Maps or > Bing what's it? Surely the need is for open data feeds to these > types of apps! ... In WMS, WFS, KML etc > > Simple! ~8-) No it's not ;) Not all use cases of the data involve being near an internet connection. All I'm saying, and this is the emergency manager in me coming out (always thinking about the fragility of communications and power infrastructure), online web services are very nice, and yes, they will be the default use case for many people, but we have to be sure that it is just as easy for people to take the data with them in the device of their choice when they are _not_ connected to the net. If we want to give citizens an application that they can use in an emergency, including maps of CD shelters, evacuation routes etc, then it has to support an offline use case as well. Cheers Gav
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Gavin <email obscured>> wrote: > On 2/07/2009, at 8:54 AM, Robert Coup wrote: >> We're talking lowest-hanging fruit here: the most commonly >> provided/distributed/requested data and the least complex >> (operational, technical, legal) to achieve. Quick wins from that and >> the learning that comes from it can then drive larger initiatives. > > In terms of lowest hanging fruit, I'd suggest some of the following: What about non-spatial data? Surely we're not all map geeks (says one)? - tourist data. Sources, destinations, spending, surveys, flow models, doc hut/track usage... - data and models used for economic predictions at treasury: sources, different scenarios, tax take, indicators (GDP, etc)... - environment - fishing numbers: recreational & commercial fishing stats, water quality, species population models... What other ideas do people have? Rob :)
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Gavin <email obscured>> wrote: > > On 2/07/2009, at 2:06 PM, <email obscured> wrote: >> Why a NZ Digital Atlas when we have Google E/M. or Yahoo Maps or >> Bing what's it? Surely the need is for open data feeds to these >> types of apps! ... In WMS, WFS, KML etc >> >> Simple! ~8-) > > No it's not ;) Amen. It's a much more significant undertaking to provide live web services so that unrestricted clients can depend on them for 24/7 use. Who funds a Ops person to get out of bed at 3am on a Sunday to figure out why KML is streaming slowly? Let alone paying for the bandwidth & high-availability servers and network connections. And all that ignores the fact most NZ businesses and people are on unreliable slow DSL connections... Rob :)
> > Not all use cases of the data involve being near an internet > connection. All I'm saying, and this is the emergency manager in me > coming out (always thinking about the fragility of communications and > power infrastructure), online web services are very nice, and yes, > they will be the default use case for many people, but we have to be > sure that it is just as easy for people to take the data with them in > the device of their choice when they are _not_ connected to the net. > > If we want to give citizens an application that they can use in an > emergency, including maps of CD shelters, evacuation routes etc, then > it has to support an offline use case as well. > > Cheers Gav > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/67d1UdQGUQlvumZZg9EPhR > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Ok Gavin, Yes agree the need to be able to continue without a connection. I was wondering why I would tramp with a lappy, but for a CD event (or rat mishap) that takes out the F-cable or cell tower then I see the need. My simple minded thought - "isn't that why we have local caching?" Don't these visualisation type apps do that?
Pre-caching vector data in Google Earth is a nightmare. Not sure its even possible. And lets not mention printing at 300dpi in a useful projection, if you've got a bunch of streaming layers in your app. Ugh.
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM, <email obscured>> wrote: > Ok Gavin, > Yes agree the need to be able to continue without a connection. I was > wondering why I would tramp with a lappy, but for a CD event (or rat mishap) > that takes out the F-cable or cell tower then I see the need. > > My simple minded thought - "isn't that why we have local caching?" Don't > these visualisation type apps do that? > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/1A2PFRkWv6fxbfO5cBiD4U > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
On 2/07/2009, at 4:09 PM, <email obscured> wrote: > Yes agree the need to be able to continue without a connection. I > was wondering why I would tramp with a lappy, but for a CD event (or > rat mishap) that takes out the F-cable or cell tower then I see the > need. With a decent app with vector and raster data on an iPhone, I'd certainly take it out with me beyond a net connection. I don't do many serious multiday tramps, but even just for remote walks, handy having more infor about your environment in your pocket, especially when it is a GPS equipped device. > My simple minded thought - "isn't that why we have local caching?" > Don't these visualisation type apps do that? Yes, but that relies upon having viewed the location you're going to be in, in advance. Also, some of these apps have arbitrary limits to the amount of data that can be cached e.g. isn't GE something like 500MB limit. If someone is a habitual GE surfer, then they are less likely to have the data they need when they drop off the net. Hence for travellers and the like, we really need to be able to have the whole of the country in your pocket. Cheers Gav
I presume that in the Google case this is something they know about and are working on. Haven't most of the recent world CD disasters ~8-) been covered or influenced by Google? I would back their development / deployment team before many others, so I assume this is a CR high on their to do list. As for the other consumer targetted products...??
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Ed Corkery <email obscured>>wrote: > Pre-caching vector data in Google Earth is a nightmare. Not sure its even > possible. > And lets not mention printing at 300dpi in a useful projection, if you've > got a bunch of streaming layers in your app. Ugh. > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM, <email obscured>> wrote: > > > Ok Gavin, > > Yes agree the need to be able to continue without a connection. I was > > wondering why I would tramp with a lappy, but for a CD event (or rat > mishap) > > that takes out the F-cable or cell tower then I see the need. > > > > My simple minded thought - "isn't that why we have local caching?" Don't > > these visualisation type apps do that? > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/1A2PFRkWv6fxbfO5cBiD4U > > > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Start your own free groups and site with > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > Host your own online groups site with > > GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3MzkXrVyEmkkGt0BmGnseP > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Regioned KML's can be pulling in data from multiple sources, configured to only display at specific zoom levels for certain geographical areas. Very tricky problem to pre-fetch all the possible regions. http://code.google.com/apis/kml/documentation/kml_21tutorial.html#workingregions You need to simplify geometries for rendering in Google Earth anyway, otherwise it will have a hernia. KML/GE vs GIS software is like rendering a complex document in HTML/CSS vs Word. As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your router accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause bandwidth problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at the critical bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via streaming services = 10x the bandwidth usage.
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > I presume that in the Google case this is something they know about and are > working on. Haven't most of the recent world CD disasters ~8-) been > covered > or influenced by Google? > I would back their development / deployment team before many others, so I > assume this is a CR high on their to do list. >
On 2/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Ed Corkery wrote: > As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your router > accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause bandwidth > problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at the > critical > bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via streaming > services = 10x the bandwidth usage. That also raises not only a network utilisation issue, but also business continuity for larger organisations - it may well be better for orgs to download and hosted locally to make more efficient use of bandwidth. I could see councils and large orgs doing that, especially if they have some mission critical apps running on them. Cheers Gav
It is interesting to see that the discussion has moved to focus on Google. I haven't had any exposure to Yahoo or the Bing thingy anyway. However, I raised the use of these apps as an alternative to the NZ Atlas suggestions and that what was needed perhaps was agreement on access to data. As for making data available to Google, I understand that there are three alternatives 1) provide Google with the data (as some Councils have done for aerial imagery and I am exploring for the Waikato), 2) serve up KML data for others to connect to as Napier City, Tiarua DC (?) and Kapiti DC have done, and 3) hold data local for inclusion in Google maps as I do presently for things like the Waikato Geothermal system boundaries. I suggest that depending upon the requirements (how good, bad or non-existent your connections) various combinations of the above can help provide data to your Google E/M. I am pleased to hear the support for mashing data for niche audiences. This is something that I have long (years) advocated to data traders such as QV and Terralink. I don't think mash was the word, but we talked about wanting to provide interested parties with access to a "sandbox" or "breadboard" fill of data so that we could see what could be done (smart people seeking problems). We have also discussed the same idea using the resources available to KAREN. Funnily enough I also argued for greater speeds when PROBE started as I thought geospatial might require more data than could be pushed down the proposed Telecom offering, but at least we got better than dial-up! (And I am by a Waikato west coast beach connecting at 6.5Mb/s so I suggest you townees change your digs ~8-) ) Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what would be involved in getting that done technically? Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> wrote: > > On 2/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Ed Corkery wrote: > > As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your router > > accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause bandwidth > > problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at the > > critical > > bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via streaming > > services = 10x the bandwidth usage. > > That also raises not only a network utilisation issue, but also > business continuity for larger organisations - it may well be better > for orgs to download and hosted locally to make more efficient use of > bandwidth. I could see councils and large orgs doing that, especially > if they have some mission critical apps running on them. > > Cheers Gav > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5RuFmQ5RnmesqU39mL6y3d > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
On 2/07/2009, at 5:46 PM, Jim McLeod wrote: > > Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. > The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what > would be > involved in getting that done technically? > Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process? > Hell yes! I had an idea for a start-up a while ago that would basically be an online building/resource consent tracker (my wife is an architect and I see the pain and time wasting that goes on with consents). Plans could be upload, annotated. Requests for changes made, etc. All electronically which would save heaps of time and printing costs. You could also give access to the various parties - Client, council, architect, engineer, etc. so that each team could contribute what they need. This would require the councils to use the standard API and for private enterprise to provide the workflow and tools. But back to the most basic level a read only API to property data would be great. Even if you had a basic XML representation of a property that is already available in HTML would be a start and not at all difficult to implement. I know Napier City Council has an html page for each property with things like rates and consents. It wouldn't be a stretch to add '.xml' onto the url to get a machine readable version.
Glen
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 2:06 PM, <email obscured>> wrote: > Why a NZ Digital Atlas when we have Google E/M. or Yahoo Maps or Bing > what's it? > > Surely the need is for open data feeds to these types of apps! > A NZ Digital Atlas is a discrete goal that organisations could rally behind, and could attract funding, because of its educational / civil defence / etc benefits. There would be mana in contributing to it, it would encourage discussions of data quality, meta-tagging, APIs, authoritative sources. Providing open data feeds to these other offshore corporations (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft) would be a marginal cost byproduct. My concept of a NZ Digital Atlas would be a real-time distributed design, similar to the National Library http://digitalnz.org.nz/ API.
~mikeP
Maybe I spoke too soon... "Our rates information is not available in datasets. The rating database is not a database it is cobol files. These pages are created using our internal corporate system and are only accessible from our websites. Thank you for your enquiry" - Napier City Council in my request to provide an XML version of their rating web pages. Sent from my iPhone
On 2/07/2009, at 5:46 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > It is interesting to see that the discussion has moved to focus on > Google. I > haven't had any exposure to Yahoo or the Bing thingy anyway. > However, I > raised the use of these apps as an alternative to the NZ Atlas > suggestions > and that what was needed perhaps was agreement on access to data. > As for making data available to Google, I understand that there are > three > alternatives 1) provide Google with the data (as some Councils have > done for > aerial imagery and I am exploring for the Waikato), 2) serve up KML > data for > others to connect to as Napier City, Tiarua DC (?) and Kapiti DC > have done, > and 3) hold data local for inclusion in Google maps as I do > presently for > things like the Waikato Geothermal system boundaries. > > I suggest that depending upon the requirements (how good, bad or > non-existent your connections) various combinations of the above can > help > provide data to your Google E/M. > > I am pleased to hear the support for mashing data for niche > audiences. This > is something that I have long (years) advocated to data traders such > as QV > and Terralink. I don't think mash was the word, but we talked about > wanting > to provide interested parties with access to a "sandbox" or > "breadboard" > fill of data so that we could see what could be done (smart people > seeking > problems). We have also discussed the same idea using the resources > available to KAREN. > > Funnily enough I also argued for greater speeds when PROBE started > as I > thought geospatial might require more data than could be pushed down > the > proposed Telecom offering, but at least we got better than dial-up! > (And I > am by a Waikato west coast beach connecting at 6.5Mb/s so I suggest > you > townees change your digs ~8-) ) > > Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. > The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what > would be > involved in getting that done technically? > Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process? > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> > wrote: > >> >> On 2/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Ed Corkery wrote: >>> As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your >>> router >>> accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause >>> bandwidth >>> problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at the >>> critical >>> bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via >>> streaming >>> services = 10x the bandwidth usage. >> >> That also raises not only a network utilisation issue, but also >> business continuity for larger organisations - it may well be better >> for orgs to download and hosted locally to make more efficient use of >> bandwidth. I could see councils and large orgs doing that, especially >> if they have some mission critical apps running on them. >> >> Cheers Gav >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5RuFmQ5RnmesqU39mL6y3d >> >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >> >> Start your own free groups and site with >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >> >> Host your own online groups site with >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >> > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/6Nc8b9lcOF3Wpl3MNlGbng > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
Looks pretty scrapeable though. If it's as consistent as it looked you could absolutely make that into a dataset. rowan 2009/7/3 Glen Barnes <email obscured>>
> Maybe I spoke too soon... > > "Our rates information is not available in datasets. The rating database > is not a database it is cobol files. > > These pages are created using our internal corporate system and are only > accessible from our websites. > > Thank you for your enquiry" > > - Napier City Council in my request to provide an XML version of their > rating web pages. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2/07/2009, at 5:46 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > > > It is interesting to see that the discussion has moved to focus on > > Google. I > > haven't had any exposure to Yahoo or the Bing thingy anyway. > > However, I > > raised the use of these apps as an alternative to the NZ Atlas > > suggestions > > and that what was needed perhaps was agreement on access to data. > > As for making data available to Google, I understand that there are > > three > > alternatives 1) provide Google with the data (as some Councils have > > done for > > aerial imagery and I am exploring for the Waikato), 2) serve up KML > > data for > > others to connect to as Napier City, Tiarua DC (?) and Kapiti DC > > have done, > > and 3) hold data local for inclusion in Google maps as I do > > presently for > > things like the Waikato Geothermal system boundaries. > > > > I suggest that depending upon the requirements (how good, bad or > > non-existent your connections) various combinations of the above can > > help > > provide data to your Google E/M. > > > > I am pleased to hear the support for mashing data for niche > > audiences. This > > is something that I have long (years) advocated to data traders such > > as QV > > and Terralink. I don't think mash was the word, but we talked about > > wanting > > to provide interested parties with access to a "sandbox" or > > "breadboard" > > fill of data so that we could see what could be done (smart people > > seeking > > problems). We have also discussed the same idea using the resources > > available to KAREN. > > > > Funnily enough I also argued for greater speeds when PROBE started > > as I > > thought geospatial might require more data than could be pushed down > > the > > proposed Telecom offering, but at least we got better than dial-up! > > (And I > > am by a Waikato west coast beach connecting at 6.5Mb/s so I suggest > > you > > townees change your digs ~8-) ) > > > > Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. > > The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what > > would be > > involved in getting that done technically? > > Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process? > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> On 2/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Ed Corkery wrote: > >>> As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your > >>> router > >>> accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause > >>> bandwidth > >>> problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at the > >>> critical > >>> bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via > >>> streaming > >>> services = 10x the bandwidth usage. > >> > >> That also raises not only a network utilisation issue, but also > >> business continuity for larger organisations - it may well be better > >> for orgs to download and hosted locally to make more efficient use of > >> bandwidth. I could see councils and large orgs doing that, especially > >> if they have some mission critical apps running on them. > >> > >> Cheers Gav > >> > >> ----------------------------------------- > >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5RuFmQ5RnmesqU39mL6y3d > >> > >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > >> > >> Start your own free groups and site with > >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > >> > >> Host your own online groups site with > >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org > >> > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/6Nc8b9lcOF3Wpl3MNlGbng > > > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Start your own free groups and site with > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > Host your own online groups site with > > GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/1gFsgMjHLDn0xIQClpkzFy > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Not wanting to be difficult, but why are you seeking the rating database? I know Councils are sensitive about these because they can contain rate payer name and address and that creates many privacy problems.
On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Rowan Crawford <email obscured>> wrote: > Looks pretty scrapeable though. If it's as consistent as it looked you > could > absolutely make that into a dataset. > > rowan > > 2009/7/3 Glen Barnes <email obscured>> > > > Maybe I spoke too soon... > > > > "Our rates information is not available in datasets. The rating database > > is not a database it is cobol files. > > > > These pages are created using our internal corporate system and are only > > accessible from our websites. > > > > Thank you for your enquiry" > > > > - Napier City Council in my request to provide an XML version of their > > rating web pages. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 2/07/2009, at 5:46 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > > > > > It is interesting to see that the discussion has moved to focus on > > > Google. I > > > haven't had any exposure to Yahoo or the Bing thingy anyway. > > > However, I > > > raised the use of these apps as an alternative to the NZ Atlas > > > suggestions > > > and that what was needed perhaps was agreement on access to data. > > > As for making data available to Google, I understand that there are > > > three > > > alternatives 1) provide Google with the data (as some Councils have > > > done for > > > aerial imagery and I am exploring for the Waikato), 2) serve up KML > > > data for > > > others to connect to as Napier City, Tiarua DC (?) and Kapiti DC > > > have done, > > > and 3) hold data local for inclusion in Google maps as I do > > > presently for > > > things like the Waikato Geothermal system boundaries. > > > > > > I suggest that depending upon the requirements (how good, bad or > > > non-existent your connections) various combinations of the above can > > > help > > > provide data to your Google E/M. > > > > > > I am pleased to hear the support for mashing data for niche > > > audiences. This > > > is something that I have long (years) advocated to data traders such > > > as QV > > > and Terralink. I don't think mash was the word, but we talked about > > > wanting > > > to provide interested parties with access to a "sandbox" or > > > "breadboard" > > > fill of data so that we could see what could be done (smart people > > > seeking > > > problems). We have also discussed the same idea using the resources > > > available to KAREN. > > > > > > Funnily enough I also argued for greater speeds when PROBE started > > > as I > > > thought geospatial might require more data than could be pushed down > > > the > > > proposed Telecom offering, but at least we got better than dial-up! > > > (And I > > > am by a Waikato west coast beach connecting at 6.5Mb/s so I suggest > > > you > > > townees change your digs ~8-) ) > > > > > > Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. > > > The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what > > > would be > > > involved in getting that done technically? > > > Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process? > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> On 2/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Ed Corkery wrote: > > >>> As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your > > >>> router > > >>> accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause > > >>> bandwidth > > >>> problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at the > > >>> critical > > >>> bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via > > >>> streaming > > >>> services = 10x the bandwidth usage. > > >> > > >> That also raises not only a network utilisation issue, but also > > >> business continuity for larger organisations - it may well be better > > >> for orgs to download and hosted locally to make more efficient use of > > >> bandwidth. I could see councils and large orgs doing that, especially > > >> if they have some mission critical apps running on them. > > >> > > >> Cheers Gav > > >> > > >> ----------------------------------------- > > >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > > >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5RuFmQ5RnmesqU39mL6y3d > > >> > > >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > > >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > >> > > >> Start your own free groups and site with > > >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > >> > > >> Host your own online groups site with > > >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > >> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > > > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/6Nc8b9lcOF3Wpl3MNlGbng > > > > > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > > > Start your own free groups and site with > > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > > > Host your own online groups site with > > > GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/1gFsgMjHLDn0xIQClpkzFy > > > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Start your own free groups and site with > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > Host your own online groups site with > > GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5BqKirHpRAN4rcDlEN6aMd > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Actually they don't contain the ratepayer name by default and this is not what we are after. As part of my day job I run zoodle.co.nz which has property information on every property in NZ. What our users want is one place where they can find information on a single property. The Rating Valuation (RV) is just one piece of data that is useful (others include school zones, local parks, etc.) The fact is that the data is already public - You can access it right from the council website so what we are asking for is no more than that - http://www.napier.govt.nz/index.php?cid=council/rates/rid&mid=12&print=rid&link= ?pp:::KKG1:::1006076410. Once you have the RV you can start doing interesting things like mashing this together with house sales data and estimating the current market value of the property. Going further by tagging the houses on Zoodle you could then start to see price trends for say 3 bedroom renovated villas in Grey Lynn. The possibilities are endless. The fact is that we (the public) have paid money for these ratings to be done so they should be made available. At the moment we have to pay a third party each time we access a rating valuation. Why?
Glen On 3/07/2009, at 10:33 AM, Jim McLeod wrote: > Not wanting to be difficult, but why are you seeking the rating > database? > I know Councils are sensitive about these because they can contain > rate > payer name and address and that creates many privacy problems. > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Rowan Crawford <email obscured>> > wrote: > >> Looks pretty scrapeable though. If it's as consistent as it looked >> you >> could >> absolutely make that into a dataset. >> >> rowan >> >> 2009/7/3 Glen Barnes <email obscured>> >> >>> Maybe I spoke too soon... >>> >>> "Our rates information is not available in datasets. The rating >>> database >>> is not a database it is cobol files. >>> >>> These pages are created using our internal corporate system and >>> are only >>> accessible from our websites. >>> >>> Thank you for your enquiry" >>> >>> - Napier City Council in my request to provide an XML version of >>> their >>> rating web pages. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 2/07/2009, at 5:46 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: >>> >>>> It is interesting to see that the discussion has moved to focus on >>>> Google. I >>>> haven't had any exposure to Yahoo or the Bing thingy anyway. >>>> However, I >>>> raised the use of these apps as an alternative to the NZ Atlas >>>> suggestions >>>> and that what was needed perhaps was agreement on access to data. >>>> As for making data available to Google, I understand that there are >>>> three >>>> alternatives 1) provide Google with the data (as some Councils have >>>> done for >>>> aerial imagery and I am exploring for the Waikato), 2) serve up KML >>>> data for >>>> others to connect to as Napier City, Tiarua DC (?) and Kapiti DC >>>> have done, >>>> and 3) hold data local for inclusion in Google maps as I do >>>> presently for >>>> things like the Waikato Geothermal system boundaries. >>>> >>>> I suggest that depending upon the requirements (how good, bad or >>>> non-existent your connections) various combinations of the above >>>> can >>>> help >>>> provide data to your Google E/M. >>>> >>>> I am pleased to hear the support for mashing data for niche >>>> audiences. This >>>> is something that I have long (years) advocated to data traders >>>> such >>>> as QV >>>> and Terralink. I don't think mash was the word, but we talked about >>>> wanting >>>> to provide interested parties with access to a "sandbox" or >>>> "breadboard" >>>> fill of data so that we could see what could be done (smart people >>>> seeking >>>> problems). We have also discussed the same idea using the resources >>>> available to KAREN. >>>> >>>> Funnily enough I also argued for greater speeds when PROBE started >>>> as I >>>> thought geospatial might require more data than could be pushed >>>> down >>>> the >>>> proposed Telecom offering, but at least we got better than dial-up! >>>> (And I >>>> am by a Waikato west coast beach connecting at 6.5Mb/s so I suggest >>>> you >>>> townees change your digs ~8-) ) >>>> >>>> Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. >>>> The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what >>>> would be >>>> involved in getting that done technically? >>>> Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2/07/2009, at 4:51 PM, Ed Corkery wrote: >>>>>> As for WFS/WMS etc, having multiple users on the inside of your >>>>>> router >>>>>> accessing external streaming GIS-quality services can cause >>>>>> bandwidth >>>>>> problems for the entire office. There's no caching happening at >>>>>> the >>>>>> critical >>>>>> bottleneck. 10 users in one office viewing the same area via >>>>>> streaming >>>>>> services = 10x the bandwidth usage. >>>>> >>>>> That also raises not only a network utilisation issue, but also >>>>> business continuity for larger organisations - it may well be >>>>> better >>>>> for orgs to download and hosted locally to make more efficient >>>>> use of >>>>> bandwidth. I could see councils and large orgs doing that, >>>>> especially >>>>> if they have some mission critical apps running on them. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers Gav >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >>>>> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5RuFmQ5RnmesqU39mL6y3d >>>>> >>>>> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >>>>> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >>>>> >>>>> Start your own free groups and site with >>>>> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >>>>> >>>>> Host your own online groups site with >>>>> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >>>> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/6Nc8b9lcOF3Wpl3MNlGbng >>>> >>>> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >>>> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >>>> >>>> Start your own free groups and site with >>>> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >>>> >>>> Host your own online groups site with >>>> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >>> >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >>> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/1gFsgMjHLDn0xIQClpkzFy >>> >>> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >>> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >>> >>> Start your own free groups and site with >>> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >>> >>> Host your own online groups site with >>> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >>> >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/5BqKirHpRAN4rcDlEN6aMd >> >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >> >> Start your own free groups and site with >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >> >> Host your own online groups site with >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >> > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/4tUmwqkYnXbHPfGr7dDQoQ > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
I like your objective. The RV comes from a public register called the District Valuation Roll. The Rating Act describes what this contains and that includes ratepayer name and address. I understand that when this act was discussed by the select committee there was considerable concern about the use of this roll to find people. The upshot is that two veiws are created by Councils, one with ratepayer name and address another without. I assume that you are after the so called "Government Valuations" for properties that can be found in the RV. Perhaps you may not be aware that these valuations are specifically collected by Councils to help them equitably collect rates - property taxes. There is considerable discussion within Councils that these values don't need to actually reflect the market valuations (a situation realised by most land owners who seek sales significantly different to the council valuations). In fact the process for determining these valuations has been parred down to the bear essentials because of the costs of doing market-ready valuations. There is also an issue about how current the data is. The RV as I said is all about setting rates. This happens once a year, so the RVs only change once per year. However, there may be otherways to get the data you seek. As I said, I do agree with your objective. The purchase of a property is possibly the biggest decision we ever make in our lifetime, so it would be good to get as much data and information about the property before we comit. Also, we obviously want to continue to protect our investment by keeping aware of what is going on around our property.
Jim
On 3/07/2009, at 11:51 AM, <email obscured> wrote: > I like your objective. Sweet! So what can you do to get me (and anyone else who wants it) machine readable access to the Waikato RV database keyed on the Valuation Reference for free? And no I'm not kidding, I just want one council in NZ to step up and work with me to open up their RV dataset so that it can be used as an example of best practice for others.
Glen > > The RV comes from a public register called the District Valuation > Roll. The Rating Act describes what this contains and that includes > ratepayer name and address. I understand that when this act was > discussed by the select committee there was considerable concern > about the use of this roll to find people. The upshot is that two > veiws are created by Councils, one with ratepayer name and address > another without. > > I assume that you are after the so called "Government Valuations" > for properties that can be found in the RV. Perhaps you may not be > aware that these valuations are specifically collected by Councils > to help them equitably collect rates - property taxes. There is > considerable discussion within Councils that these values don't need > to actually reflect the market valuations (a situation realised by > most land owners who seek sales significantly different to the > council valuations). In fact the process for determining these > valuations has been parred down to the bear essentials because of > the costs of doing market-ready valuations. > > There is also an issue about how current the data is. The RV as I > said is all about setting rates. This happens once a year, so the > RVs only change once per year. > > However, there may be otherways to get the data you seek. > > As I said, I do agree with your objective. The purchase of a > property is possibly the biggest decision we ever make in our > lifetime, so it would be good to get as much data and information > about the property before we comit. Also, we obviously want to > continue to protect our investment by keeping aware of what is going > on around our property. > > Jim > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/30dnecliJFQIDEcuOBs4Cz > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
You overestimate my powers! ~8-) The rating valuation data belongs to each Council. In the Waikato we have 13 Councils. The Waikato Regional Council has to negotiate with each of the 12 Territorial Authorities (Districts and Cities) to get access to their data so that the Regional Council can strike its rates. For some regions, some of this valuation data can take upto 6 months to access. For some Councils they have to purchase their valuation data back from their database service provider so that they themsleves can analysis the properties within their dominion. What I may be able to negotiate is access to the Waikato Regional Council property rates in machine readable form.
Jim
"For some Councils they have to purchase their valuation data back from their database service provider so that they themsleves can analysis the properties within their dominion." Erm.... how did they ever come to sign contracts which would require this? Has any regulator (such as the C&AG) been made aware of this somewhat Kafkaesque situation?
---- <email obscured> wrote: ============= You overestimate my powers! ~8-) The rating valuation data belongs to each Council. In the Waikato we have 13 Councils. The Waikato Regional Council has to negotiate with each of the 12 Territorial Authorities (Districts and Cities) to get access to their data so that the Regional Council can strike its rates. For some regions, some of this valuation data can take upto 6 months to access. For some Councils they have to purchase their valuation data back from their database service provider so that they themsleves can analysis the properties within their dominion. What I may be able to negotiate is access to the Waikato Regional Council property rates in machine readable form. Jim ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/4TzZFql3HoG7bw4Sas2RDT To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Start your own free groups and site with OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net Host your own online groups site with GroupServer http://groupserver.org
This is just nuts. My position (and I think this should be the position of this group) is: "We have nothing against external companies performing work for the Government and local body councils but ALL resulting data should be owned by the Government and distributed by the Government. If distribution is performed by a third party then the third party should not discriminate against any data consumer and should provide the data for free" The last point takes into account companies such as Koordinates who are providing a service to the likes of the MfE but not profiting directly of the data consumer.
Glen On 3/07/2009, at 12:56 PM, Andrew Ecclestone wrote: > "For some Councils they have to purchase their valuation data back > from their database service provider so that they themsleves can > analysis the properties within their dominion." > > Erm.... how did they ever come to sign contracts which would require > this? Has any regulator (such as the C&AG) been made aware of this > somewhat Kafkaesque situation? > > ---- <email obscured> wrote: > > ============= > You overestimate my powers! ~8-) > The rating valuation data belongs to each Council. In the Waikato we > have 13 Councils. > The Waikato Regional Council has to negotiate with each of the 12 > Territorial Authorities (Districts and Cities) to get access to > their data so that the Regional Council can strike its rates. For > some regions, some of this valuation data can take upto 6 months to > access. For some Councils they have to purchase their valuation data > back from their database service provider so that they themsleves > can analysis the properties within their dominion. > > What I may be able to negotiate is access to the Waikato Regional > Council property rates in machine readable form. > > Jim > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/4TzZFql3HoG7bw4Sas2RDT > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/2JNsf25UM10HxYS6QznioX > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
On 2009-07-03, at 13:03 , Glen Barnes wrote: > This is just nuts. My position (and I think this should be the > position of this group) is: > > "We have nothing against external companies performing work for the > Government and local body councils but ALL resulting data should be > owned by the Government and distributed by the Government. If > distribution is performed by a third party then the third party should > not discriminate against any data consumer and should provide the data > for free" I'm sure Jim will jump in here soon and say that councils get cheaper imagery if they licence it and the contractor is able to resell, as opposed to the solution of paying more for the imagery e.g. covering the potentially lost sales that the contractor would suffer from open data. I don't agree with this approach either, but this is the logic behind current operations. Cheers Gav
On 3/07/2009, at 8:39 AM, Glen Barnes wrote: > On 2/07/2009, at 5:46 PM, Jim McLeod wrote: >> >> Anyway back to question of getting data flowing. >> The concept of an API for working with Councils is interesting what would be >> involved in getting that done technically? >> Could we have an API for the building or resource consents process? >> > > Hell yes! I had an idea for a start-up a while ago that would > basically be an online building/resource consent tracker (my wife is an architect and I see the pain and time wasting that goes on with consents). Plans could be upload, annotated. Requests for changes made, etc. All electronically which would save heaps of time and printing costs. You could also give access to the various parties - Client, council, architect, engineer, etc. so that each team could contribute what they need. This would require the councils to use the standard API and for private enterprise to provide the workflow and tools. I'm involved in several advocacy groups that want to respond to resource consent applications affecting rivers, or cycling, etc. It's crazy that every council appears to have implemented their own systems for managing resource consents and I'm not aware of any data standards around resource consent applications. A quick win here would be simply an aggregator of all resource consent applications by scraping each regional councils posts. Perhaps we could nudge them to express these as Atom or similar. Then move onto tagging, an event calendar for submission dates, attached documents, annotations, status tracking, etc. I'd be keen to work on this when I have FixMyStreet done...
Regards Jonathan
> > I'm sure Jim will jump in here soon and say that councils get cheaper > imagery if they licence it and the contractor is able to resell, as > opposed to the solution of paying more for the imagery e.g. covering > the potentially lost sales that the contractor would suffer from open > data. Boy, you're going to be annoyed next week when Koordinates starts selling high-res aerials for large swathes of New Zealand!
On 2009-07-03, at 13:50 , Ed Corkery wrote: > Boy, you're going to be annoyed next week when Koordinates starts > selling > high-res aerials for large swathes of New Zealand! Selling hi-res aerials is quite different from councils making them freely downloadable ;) I won't be annoyed though. Cheers Gav
Nuts... maybe. However, it is what Councils inherited from Central Government in late 1999, just before Y2K, just before all computer systems including rating systems were due to fail because of a computer bug. Since then, most Councils have valuation/database service contracts with QV - an SOE.
Nuts... On 7/3/09, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> wrote: > > > On 2009-07-03, at 13:50 , Ed Corkery wrote: > > Boy, you're going to be annoyed next week when Koordinates starts > > selling > > high-res aerials for large swathes of New Zealand! > > Selling hi-res aerials is quite different from councils making them > freely downloadable ;) > > I won't be annoyed though. > > Cheers Gav > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3TZH27B6ZYHMyzxAParruG > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Yes a bit of a long slow motion Matrix-like jump, but you are correct Gavin, The Regional Council position I am aware of is that much of the data we procure or purchase is for our use only. We do not have the mandate, money or resources to buy the data access rights for everyone and her computing device. We are charged with getting the data and information that helps Councillors make decisions. To do this we pull data from many sources, we reformat this data, we cross-check, verify, smooth, get peer reviews, do statistical analysis, recombine, mash, integrate to the extent that we are comfortable with what we have, the information we create, the inferences we make and with the recommendations we can suggest to Councillors. Many people then approach us because they know we now have a highly refined, trusted and obviously very valuable database. These people then assume that they can take and use the data and information as well. Not so, because as I mentioned we purchased the initial data for our use. In doing this like everyone else we get it at a much reduced cost. For data that we require others to provide (under legislation) that is a different situation. In collecting this data we have to be very careful about describing to the provider why we need the data and what we are going to do with it. If we don't do this then we can end up in the environment court ourselves. For the very small amount of data we collect ourselves we are continually looking at how this can be provided to others. But this is not a high priority job or a well funded job and so it only gets resources when they are available (or our personal time ~8-) ). The other option we encourage people to explore is for them to approach the data sources and negotiate access. If these agreements are provided then we can potentially hand on the data. However, note that the data we are now talking about is likely different to what we received because it has been modified (reformatted, deglitched, recoloured...) for our purposes. This then creates further complexity that takes time and resources to resolve. However, even with the above constraints, we continue to seek better, more fluid, convenient data flows.
Jim On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> wrote: > > On 2009-07-03, at 13:03 , Glen Barnes wrote: > > > This is just nuts. My position (and I think this should be the > > position of this group) is: > > > > "We have nothing against external companies performing work for the > > Government and local body councils but ALL resulting data should be > > owned by the Government and distributed by the Government. If > > distribution is performed by a third party then the third party should > > not discriminate against any data consumer and should provide the data > > for free" > > I'm sure Jim will jump in here soon and say that councils get cheaper > imagery if they licence it and the contractor is able to resell, as > opposed to the solution of paying more for the imagery e.g. covering > the potentially lost sales that the contractor would suffer from open > data. > > I don't agree with this approach either, but this is the logic behind > current operations. > > Cheers Gav > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/7oAAd5WTwndAE7V9ShkAC5 > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Hi Jim, On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > The Regional Council position I am aware of is that much of the data we > procure or purchase is for our use only. We do not have the mandate, money > or resources to buy the data access rights for everyone and her computing > device. I don't think anybody is asking for licensed commercial data to be made available. What we're focussing on is data that the councils collect or maintain and where they're the authoritative custodian of the data. However, there are a number of situations where councils license commercial data *with* rights to distribute. IMO, if those rights are there the data should be open for others to access as well. > For the very small amount of data we collect ourselves we are continually > looking at how this can be provided to others. For most councils there is not a "very small amount of data". There are huge amounts of environmental data collected and maintained by the regional councils, and local councils have the best data on the infrastructure in their towns & cities, as well as the properties, consents, rates, parks, rubbish collections, traffic, and all the other things that go into running NZ. If data collection contracts (eg. measure water quality in the harbour) are being (re-)negotiated then IP should be a part of it, and unless there are *compelling* reasons (and $ can be a part of that) the data should be clearly licensed for distribution by the councils. Rob :)
Thanks for the response Rob, Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as built data or operational data was required by others or would be of value outside Council and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the foresight to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated cheaper contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to use the data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" thinking commercial world.) (A description of the state not necessarily the desired state. ~8-) )
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Robert Coup <email obscured>> wrote: > Hi Jim, > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> > wrote: > > > The Regional Council position I am aware of is that much of the data we > > procure or purchase is for our use only. We do not have the mandate, > money > > or resources to buy the data access rights for everyone and her computing > > device. > > > I don't think anybody is asking for licensed commercial data to be made > available. What we're focussing on is data that the councils collect or > maintain and where they're the authoritative custodian of the data. > > However, there are a number of situations where councils license commercial > data *with* rights to distribute. IMO, if those rights are there the data > should be open for others to access as well. > > > > For the very small amount of data we collect ourselves we are continually > > looking at how this can be provided to others. > > > For most councils there is not a "very small amount of data". There are > huge > amounts of environmental data collected and maintained by the regional > councils, and local councils have the best data on the infrastructure in > their towns & cities, as well as the properties, consents, rates, parks, > rubbish collections, traffic, and all the other things that go into running > NZ. > > If data collection contracts (eg. measure water quality in the harbour) are > being (re-)negotiated then IP should be a part of it, and unless there are > *compelling* reasons (and $ can be a part of that) the data should be > clearly licensed for distribution by the councils. > > Rob :) > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/7ythUioeYUSoWI4EbtEh2e > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Hi Jim, On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. > When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info > systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as built data > or > operational data was required by others or would be of value outside > Council > and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the foresight > to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated cheaper > contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to use the > data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" > thinking > commercial world.) Sure, so one of the things I'd like to see is that these things are clearly considered by public organisations when contracts are being negotiated. So even if some data can't be open now, it might be in the next few years. For example, a private company owns the designs for virtually all bridges on the state highways in NZ, because the government department didn't think they had any value during sale negotiations. Whoops. Rob :)
Jim McLeod wrote: > Thanks for the response Rob, > Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. > When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info > systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as built data or > operational data was required by others or would be of value outside Council > and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the foresight > to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated cheaper > contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to use the > data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" thinking > commercial world.) > > (A description of the state not necessarily the desired state. ~8-) ) However, isn't that data still "Official Information" under the legislation? Councils may have contracted out the services but they still have responsibility for the data. Contract law does not trump statutory requirements, I think. This is something councils need to sort out damn smartish, as the PRA will make quite solid requirements of them around keeping and making available much of that data.
~mark
I have done some quick checks on this angle.It may be discoverable for viewing under the LOGIMA, but assuming that it isn't commercial (because LOGIMA says it can be with held then) the information can't be used for other purposes. Besides, if I was setting up a business based upon data flows from a source, I would be very interested in making sure I had a willing provider. We have many problems / much experience with unwilling providers of information. My thinking is that there is much to be gained from trusted flows of information. How to get this happening is the opportunity, perhaps even an obligation on us all now that we are looking at an 80% reduction in CO2.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Mark Harris <email obscured>> wrote: > Jim McLeod wrote: > > Thanks for the response Rob, > > Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. > > When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info > > systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as built data > or > > operational data was required by others or would be of value outside > Council > > and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the > foresight > > to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated cheaper > > contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to use > the > > data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" > thinking > > commercial world.) > > > > (A description of the state not necessarily the desired state. ~8-) ) > > However, isn't that data still "Official Information" under the > legislation? Councils may have contracted out the services but they > still have responsibility for the data. Contract law does not trump > statutory requirements, I think. > > This is something councils need to sort out damn smartish, as the PRA > will make quite solid requirements of them around keeping and making > available much of that data. > > ~mark > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3RAZcjl1MKXr7J9R59va2W > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Yeah - Lets look at how we can move forward with this instead of looking back. What practical steps can we take to a) Surface instances where councils have given/negotiated away rights and b) make sure this doesn't happen again. One example noted was 'bus info systems' and I would be very interested in why this data cannot be disseminated by council for free in a machine readable format. The more people catching the bus = better for the environment, cheaper fares and a more frequent service. The way to get more people using the bus is to make the information more available - Where is my bus exactly? and how long will it take to get to my destination right now? If we can start solving these issues one-by-one we can start to build up some case studies to point people to.
Glen On 10/07/2009, at 9:07 AM, Mark Harris wrote: > Jim McLeod wrote: >> Thanks for the response Rob, >> Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. >> When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info >> systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as >> built data or >> operational data was required by others or would be of value >> outside Council >> and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the >> foresight >> to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated >> cheaper >> contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to >> use the >> data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" >> thinking >> commercial world.) >> >> (A description of the state not necessarily the desired state. >> ~8-) ) > > However, isn't that data still "Official Information" under the > legislation? Councils may have contracted out the services but they > still have responsibility for the data. Contract law does not trump > statutory requirements, I think. > > This is something councils need to sort out damn smartish, as the PRA > will make quite solid requirements of them around keeping and making > available much of that data. > > ~mark > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3RAZcjl1MKXr7J9R59va2W > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
I have some knowledge of one of these.The timetable is available on the web site, but beyond this there is a system where the bus position is known to an information system. This data is collected from the buses and sent to each bus stop so that potential passengers can by pressing a button find when the next bus might arrive. The information is audio as well as scrolled across a screen. There was a suggestion that the data feed be made more available but this would increase the cost and it wasn't clear how it could be used at the time. (There were many suggestions but no one knew how to actually do the coding.) So the requirement was dropped. I may be able to find out more about this given the interest in making an app.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Glen Barnes <email obscured>> wrote: > Yeah - Lets look at how we can move forward with this instead of > looking back. What practical steps can we take to a) Surface instances > where councils have given/negotiated away rights and b) make sure this > doesn't happen again. One example noted was 'bus info systems' and I > would be very interested in why this data cannot be disseminated by > council for free in a machine readable format. The more people > catching the bus = better for the environment, cheaper fares and a > more frequent service. The way to get more people using the bus is to > make the information more available - Where is my bus exactly? and how > long will it take to get to my destination right now? > > If we can start solving these issues one-by-one we can start to build > up some case studies to point people to. > > Glen > > On 10/07/2009, at 9:07 AM, Mark Harris wrote: > > > Jim McLeod wrote: > >> Thanks for the response Rob, > >> Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. > >> When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info > >> systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as > >> built data or > >> operational data was required by others or would be of value > >> outside Council > >> and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the > >> foresight > >> to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated > >> cheaper > >> contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to > >> use the > >> data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" > >> thinking > >> commercial world.) > >> > >> (A description of the state not necessarily the desired state. > >> ~8-) ) > > > > However, isn't that data still "Official Information" under the > > legislation? Councils may have contracted out the services but they > > still have responsibility for the data. Contract law does not trump > > statutory requirements, I think. > > > > This is something councils need to sort out damn smartish, as the PRA > > will make quite solid requirements of them around keeping and making > > available much of that data. > > > > ~mark > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3RAZcjl1MKXr7J9R59va2W > > > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Start your own free groups and site with > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > Host your own online groups site with > > GroupServer http://groupserver.org > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/639qFYqulXwphCdmh68tuw > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
I'd love to see an iPhone app that is connect to the Christchurch bus system so that I can get the realtime info on my phone. Surely they can expose this data to developers via APIs? Tie this to the GPSR in the phone, along with the Internet capability, and you have the potential for a useful tool for public transport. Allow it to filter out all buses that you're not interested in, set up favourite routes inc. connections. It could take some of the hassle out of public transport for sure. Cheers Gav
On 2009-07-10, at 15:43 , Jim McLeod wrote: > I have some knowledge of one of these.The timetable is available on > the web > site, but beyond this there is a system where the bus position is > known to > an information system. This data is collected from the buses and > sent to > each bus stop so that potential passengers can by pressing a button > find > when the next bus might arrive. The information is audio as well as > scrolled > across a screen. There was a suggestion that the data feed be made > more > available but this would increase the cost and it wasn't clear how > it could > be used at the time. (There were many suggestions but no one knew > how to > actually do the coding.) So the requirement was dropped. > > I may be able to find out more about this given the interest in > making an > app. > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Glen Barnes <email obscured>> > wrote: > >> Yeah - Lets look at how we can move forward with this instead of >> looking back. What practical steps can we take to a) Surface >> instances >> where councils have given/negotiated away rights and b) make sure >> this >> doesn't happen again. One example noted was 'bus info systems' and I >> would be very interested in why this data cannot be disseminated by >> council for free in a machine readable format. The more people >> catching the bus = better for the environment, cheaper fares and a >> more frequent service. The way to get more people using the bus is to >> make the information more available - Where is my bus exactly? and >> how >> long will it take to get to my destination right now? >> >> If we can start solving these issues one-by-one we can start to build >> up some case studies to point people to. >> >> Glen >> >> On 10/07/2009, at 9:07 AM, Mark Harris wrote: >> >>> Jim McLeod wrote: >>>> Thanks for the response Rob, >>>> Much of the data you mention is collected for us by others. >>>> When contracts were negotiated, for footpaths, floodbanks, bus info >>>> systems,... the Council negotiators were not aware that the as >>>> built data or >>>> operational data was required by others or would be of value >>>> outside Council >>>> and they were seeking to reduce costs. Where contractors had the >>>> foresight >>>> to see the value in the data, in many instances they negotiated >>>> cheaper >>>> contracts to retain the commercial rights, allowing the Council to >>>> use the >>>> data for Council purposes but not commercial. (Remmeber the "right" >>>> thinking >>>> commercial world.) >>>> >>>> (A description of the state not necessarily the desired state. >>>> ~8-) ) >>> >>> However, isn't that data still "Official Information" under the >>> legislation? Councils may have contracted out the services but they >>> still have responsibility for the data. Contract law does not trump >>> statutory requirements, I think. >>> >>> This is something councils need to sort out damn smartish, as the >>> PRA >>> will make quite solid requirements of them around keeping and making >>> available much of that data. >>> >>> ~mark >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >>> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3RAZcjl1MKXr7J9R59va2W >>> >>> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >>> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >>> >>> Start your own free groups and site with >>> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >>> >>> Host your own online groups site with >>> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >> >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/639qFYqulXwphCdmh68tuw >> >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >> >> Start your own free groups and site with >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >> >> Host your own online groups site with >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >> > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/3ZaR8N1tm2VfNDXYokO5ZL > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > There was a suggestion that the data feed be made more > available but this would increase the cost and it wasn't clear how it could > be used at the time. (There were many suggestions but no one knew how to > actually do the coding.) So the requirement was dropped. Who do these people ask? I came up with (and could code) 3 useful consumer applications based on public transport info, and that was without any thought: - An application (Web/iPhone/SMS) where i can save my favourite routes and do a "when is the next one" query, and set alarms for reminders, etc. And by routes i mean combinations of bus/train/ferry/walking. - An accessibility measure (ie. access to public transport) score for any address, could be snapped up by something like zoodle to let property buyers/renters instantly see where they can get to, how often, etc. Would also help people pressure the operators to improve their routes/timings/etc. - A website monitoring the on-time performance of buses & trains, to give people an idea of what they're in for, and to keep the operators on their toes. In addition: - Monitoring bus speeds and comparing them to historic data would give some useful insights into traffic congestion, effects of roadworks, etc in suburbs all around the city. - Google Transit will take feeds of public transport information - the more accessible the better. Rob :)
Gavin, > I'd love to see an iPhone app that is connect to the Christchurch bus > system so that I can get the realtime info on my phone. I have seen exactly that on Jonathan Hunt's iPhone. Using this, http://metroinfo.org.nz/wap.html I presume.
Dan
On 2009-07-10, at 16:09 , Dan Randow wrote: >> I'd love to see an iPhone app that is connect to the Christchurch bus >> system so that I can get the realtime info on my phone. > > I have seen exactly that on Jonathan Hunt's iPhone. > > Using this, > http://metroinfo.org.nz/wap.html > I presume. Yeah have used that and the user experience leaves a lot to be desired. I want something that uses the iPhones interface, pretty maps and not a web browser application ;) WAP access is also locked-in to the way MetroInfo want to provide the service, and I'd like to see more innovative and useful tools developed that provide more than ECan is currently willing to... Cheers Gav
OK.You may be in luck to prove your point (not necessarily for ChCh) It looks as though I may have some one willing to look at supplying a data feed. Can I have one point of contact?
Jim On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> wrote: > > On 2009-07-10, at 16:09 , Dan Randow wrote: > > >> I'd love to see an iPhone app that is connect to the Christchurch bus > >> system so that I can get the realtime info on my phone. > > > > I have seen exactly that on Jonathan Hunt's iPhone. > > > > Using this, > > http://metroinfo.org.nz/wap.html > > I presume. > > Yeah have used that and the user experience leaves a lot to be > desired. I want something that uses the iPhones interface, pretty maps > and not a web browser application ;) > > WAP access is also locked-in to the way MetroInfo want to provide the > service, and I'd like to see more innovative and useful tools > developed that provide more than ECan is currently willing to... > > Cheers Gav > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: > http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/IGw9NXfhjBjXN8oX0S079 > > To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Start your own free groups and site with > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > Host your own online groups site with > GroupServer http://groupserver.org >
Thanks Glen.It will be interesting to see what can be done.
Cheers On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Jim McLeod <email obscured>> wrote: > OK.You may be in luck to prove your point (not necessarily for ChCh) > It looks as though I may have some one willing to look at supplying a data > feed. > > Can I have one point of contact? > > Jim > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Gavin Treadgold <email obscured>> wrote: > >> >> On 2009-07-10, at 16:09 , Dan Randow wrote: >> >> >> I'd love to see an iPhone app that is connect to the Christchurch bus >> >> system so that I can get the realtime info on my phone. >> > >> > I have seen exactly that on Jonathan Hunt's iPhone. >> > >> > Using this, >> > http://metroinfo.org.nz/wap.html >> > I presume. >> >> Yeah have used that and the user experience leaves a lot to be >> desired. I want something that uses the iPhones interface, pretty maps >> and not a web browser application ;) >> >> WAP access is also locked-in to the way MetroInfo want to provide the >> service, and I'd like to see more innovative and useful tools >> developed that provide more than ECan is currently willing to... >> >> Cheers Gav >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Full text of this topic in The Open Government Ninjas: >> http://groups.opengovt.org.nz/r/topic/IGw9NXfhjBjXN8oX0S079 >> >> To leave The Open Government Ninjas, email >> <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe >> >> Start your own free groups and site with >> OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net >> >> Host your own online groups site with >> GroupServer http://groupserver.org >> > >
On 10/07/2009, at 4:09 PM, Dan Randow wrote: > Gavin, > >> I'd love to see an iPhone app that is connect to the Christchurch bus >> system so that I can get the realtime info on my phone. > > I have seen exactly that on Jonathan Hunt's iPhone. > > Using this, > http://metroinfo.org.nz/wap.html > I presume. I did use the ECAN WAP for a while, but then I discovered there was an underlying XML feed. I was going to do an iPhone app, but then I found the Metroinfo app from Orsome software. http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=286729253&mt=8 and http://www.orsome.co.nz/MetroInfo.html It's generally pretty good; it's totally altered my engagement with public transport: timetables are largely irrelevant, what matters is when the bus is *actually* going to arrive. I know how long it takes to get from home to the bus stop, or from work to the bus, so I can time my run appropriately. There's also a Google Maps mashup at http://arcgis.ecan.govt.nz/Beta/Metro/wheresmybus.aspx This beats the IE-only interface originally made available available at http://metroinfo.co.nz/realtime_map.html using SVG. The current web map is Silverlight based, but that's not something I'll run either. These interfaces are based on XML data feeds from Connexions http://www.connexionz.co.nz/ Contact Michael Stocks if you want the details. Last time I asked they had no official public API, but were willing to give me some info. But since the Metroinfo does 90% of what I want I haven't bothered developing my own. I noticed on GETS that the recent RFP for a realtime bus information system did not include a public API. Hopefully one can still be made available. This is the kind of data that should be bottom line for *any* public transport system in NZ, whether bus, rail, air, whatever. Regards Jonathan http://huntdesign.co.nz
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